I'm the kind of guy who see's value in knowing your equipment also. I used to have an '87 Crew 4x4 that I had put 300,000 + miles on after it already had 325,000. I drive commercially with pickups and trailers. People would look at that truck and say..... 'hey... how many miles she got? I would seriously have to answer the question with the reply.... "Which part are you asking about?" I knew that my ball joints needed replaced, I knew I had new brake lining, new transmission, new shocks, driveline, etc etc. Problem was that rust was eating away at it. Sold it to a guy for $750.00 with a blown motor (but a spare in the bed). With this '99 I need the tonage of a F350 and the power of at least the v10. So I dont' think that I could actually sell and buy anything better. With 305,000 on it, I might get my original $7000 back if lucky only because it has an engine in it with less than 100,000 and a new tranny/transfer case. Thus, knowing that my brakes are new, my shocks are good and other things about the truck is worth alot to me also. If I would trade or sell, I would probably try to find another ford pickup of the F450 or F550 level with a blown engine and then install a cummins or Cat 3126 in it. Better fuel efficiency comes into play between the v10 and diesel when 70,000 miles/yr are reached. I'm in that range.

About the motorcycles.. yes it does seem to be a down market. Perhaps someone will come up with a motorcycle auction similar to the Barrett Jackson auction, but high end motorcycles arent' as much of a status symbol of wealth as are high priced cars.

Again, Function over form or status for me. The yoke of slavery to car payments may be an incentive for some to produce great amounts of income, but it is slavery none the less. Making money work for you rather than working for money seems to be part of the theme of this thread.

Another common saying that applies to this thread is.... one mans junk is another mans treasure. Knowing both men puts you in a position to profit.

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__________________
To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.

On every question of construction [of the Constitution] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or intended against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed. - Thomas Jefferson

Hi Kahlil Gibran. Good point. I was in Bern Switzerland in 1974 and remember many workers riding bicycles to work. The streets were full of them and only a few cars on the road. For an American seeing this for the first time, it was quite a surprise. Of course, being young and brain dead at the time, I didn’t think about the implications and benefits. Saving gas and healthy exercise were two reasons then but an additional benefit of having a bicycles as a backup for future fuel problems has become large enough that many survivalists and ecologically aware people in America have already added them to their inventory. I have three bicycles and spare tires and tubes. Chains might be a good idea to get also.

I remember the gas rationing in the 70s; there were long lines and sometimes fighting at the pumps.

There might be some money to be made with bike repair as well as manufacturing baskets and two wheel trailers to haul groceries. Those 200-300 MPG bike assist motors may do well too. Depends on how high the fuel prices rise as well as how restricted the fuel availability becomes.

I think Americans’ first reaction to fuel problems will be to acquire high mileage cars. I have seen it in the past and have a few 35 to 55 MPG cars out back for this eventuality. Right now the public is complacent but when oil prices rise dramatically, they will react quickly. The few desirable cars will disappear and people will drag ones out of their back yards and repair them. It is a funny supply/demand situation with high mileage cars.

It may take a long term fuel shortage to motivate Americans to consider going to bicycles for local transportation. Also, many workers live a long way from their work and have to have a car. The alternative here is to ride share on a massive basis. Imagine four workers sharing rides with each one having a car that gets 35 MPG. If each drove alone, they would use 4 times the fuel as well as wear and tear on their cars. But with 4 persons ride sharing, they would effectively be getting 140 MPG. Well, that’s one way of looking at it.

A problem with Americans is that we have become accustomed to having control over our transportation. In my opinion, that is about to change dramatically and cooperation will become necessary. It is going to take something like $100 oil or rationing to get Americans to change their thinking. Most people are reactionaries rather than pre planners, so when an event happens, there will suddenly be demand outstripping supply. It is this forward thinking that can make some good dough for those who have inventory waiting for such a time.

Maybe there will be innovators who compete for the highest mileage cars. Maybe a whole new industry. Right now, new electric cars are too expensive and they still need recharging from oil, coal, nukular, and gas power plants. A lightweight diesel car could get 100 MPG or more if engineered properly. Weight of the converted vehicle is a large factor here. If I had the time I would like to experiment with a hybrid electric/diesel generator combination. There are several out there and they can be found by Googling their websites.

Lots of possibilities and so little spare time. Sigh.

Best wishes,

agnut

Cornering the market
Agnut. Have you ever tryed to corner something in the Market or some where els.You see in business, cornering the market is an illegal attempt to buy up enough of a particular commodity to allow the price to be manipulated, if I'm right?. It is also possible to make even more money by buying futures contracts on the commodity, and selling them at a profit after inflating the price. In attempting to corner a market, the term stockpile is used as a verb: to stockpile something is to hoard, or retain a quantity of a given commodity. In this context, stockpile can also refer to the hoarded commodity in its collective sense, regardless of its location (money in a bank, oil traveling through pipelines or refineries for example).
Cornering the market has a long and checkered history. Although there have been many attempts to corner markets in everything from Silver to cattle, to date very few of these attempts have ever succeeded. The party attempting to corner a market can become very vulnerable, due to the size of their position, especially if this becomes widely known. If the rest of the market senses weakness, they will resist any attempt to artificially drive the market any further than some point, by actively taking opposing positions. When the price starts to move against the cornering party they are in a very difficult position, as it is likely to be impossible to exit much of their position without catastrophically moving prices against themselves. In such a circumstance, many other parties will be able to profit from the cornerer's need to unwind their position.
One of the most infamous attempts from the early 1960s later became known as the Great Salad Oil Swindle, in which Tino De Angelis not only attempted to corner the market on soybean oil, but sold contracts in the oil and used the money to buy futures as well. In fact it turned out he had no oil, just tanks filled with water, and when the scheme was eventually discovered $175 million evaporated overnight.
A particularly blatant example occurred in 1980 when brothers Nelson Bunker Hunt and Herbert Hunt attempted to corner the silver markets. Bunker and Herbert started investing in silver as a hedge against inflation, and by 1980 it was estimated that they held one-third of the world's supply of the metal. However when this became clear the price of silver actually fell, and the Hunt brothers failed to meet huge margin calls on their futures contracts. This sparked a panic on commodity and futures exchanges, culminating in a 50% one-day decline, known as Silver Thursday, on March 27, 1980. A consortium of US banks provided a $1.1 billion line of credit to enable the brothers to pay their debts, which were backed by H. L. Hunt's petroleum empire. When the oil market collapsed in the mid-'80s, the entire Hunt oil company was nearly wiped out, although the brothers still have personal trust funds with hundreds of millions each.
The collapse of Barings Bank, then the oldest merchant bank in the UK was largely due to Nick Leeson's illegal attempt to prop up the Nikkei Index, building up a huge long position. Another recent example was that of Yasuo Hamanaka, who in 1996 attempted to corner the copper market, resulting in a loss of 1.8 billion dollars for the Sumitomo Corporation and an eight year prison sentence for Hamanaka. So how do we or someone els try and corner the silver market or something Els legaly:s13:

__________________
Silver Gorilla
{Investing in Precious Metal Silver} "Within our lifetime, Nothing this good will ever stare you in the face again". Its all about Silver

Hi TonyG. Thanks for the post. It clarified your reasoning behind why you need your heavy duty Ford V10 truck. The diesel truck becomes more sensible as mileage approaches 70K per year. My 1992 Dodge truck with a Cummins diesel was an excellent vehicle. Sometimes I miss it but the $5K equity I extracted when going to a 1973 Chevy 4X4 ¾ truck fitted my needs at the time. I’m mostly going to use it to pull boats out of the water and sometimes haul a trailer. Probably under 3K miles per year.

My fingers still hurt from yesterday replacing the disc brake rotors of the Chevy truck. Boy are they heavy !

If I were driving a lot professionally I would opt for the Dodge Cummins diesel over the Ford diesel. It seems to be simpler and has a long positive history behind it. I never had any problems with the Dodge diesel. I don’t know much about the later Dodge diesels but read that their horsepower is greater, especially with larger injectors. Of course some fuel economy is sacrificed. I got 20-21 MPG on the freeway.

The motorcycles are a specialized market and therefore much smaller than the auto market. But it only takes one buyer who appreciates what you have. The problem is in finding that one buyer without expending too much time and advertising dollars. Craigslist is free to advertise. A while back I had two ‘90 Saab convertibles and sold them to one buyer thanks to Craigslist. Ads on bulletin boards are free too.

I agree that function over form is the only sensible way to navigate through this life. I had to learn the hard way that having things others envied was a hollow satisfaction. Now I more tend to buy things that others might laugh at but at least they are paid for. Warren Buffet said that only when the tide goes out will we see who is not wearing any swimming trunks. The emperor has no clothes. Debt can strip one to the bone.

I sure as heck don’t respect those who have gotten themselves into unnecessary debt in the mindless quest to keep up with the Joneses. The Kondratieff winter is coming and the grasshoppers who played all summer and didn’t put up stores in the fall are going to have a miserable time of it. This ridiculous congressional proposal of bailing out the subprime housing borrowers at the expense of prudent citizens will only encourage further foolish spending and make the coming bad times even worse. These borrowers need to learn a lesson as well as the world needs to see the consequences of greed and foolishness. I can’t operate foolishly in my business; why should they be allowed to, especially with my tax dollars ? Just another legislated theft of the honest worker. Rant off.

Your mattress story doesn’t surprise me. It makes good sense to recycle the inner workings of a mattress, especially a high quality one. I wonder if there are companies around locally that would rebuild my mattresses when the time comes. I have a bad back and can only sleep well on a mattress that is well made and firm, like the one I have now.

These old Maytag wringer washers remind me of my grandma’s gas powered wringer washer. It had a kick start like a motor scooter and putted away on the back porch. I can still remember it from some 50 odd years ago. I have a later model Maytag washer and dryer and they work pretty well unless we overload the washer. The old wringer washers sound like they work great but how about the parts availability ? I had one about 15 years ago and used it for washing and wringing out car wash towels. It was t tough old beast. You had to be careful to keep your fingers away from the rollers or you would end up like some cartoon character, flat like a pancake. But tragic and not funny. In those days you had to be responsible for your own carelessness and stupidity. But now we have lawyers and legislators to blame the manufacturers and anyone with deep pockets. Isn’t that just peachy ?

This bartering and horse trading requires each of us to be responsible for our decision making. We must learn from our own mistakes and grow from that experience. Blaming others for our failures is a crutch for the lame brained.

I will be the first to admit that I make mistakes. And I will make more mistakes in the future. It is an integral part of the learning process. I turn away a lot of deals because they don’t fit my estimation of time involved, investment and profit. I learned that restoring old cars can be a 10 cents per hour endeavor. If you have to have a restored car it is often better to find someone who needs to dump his to pay the bills. Let him work for you for 10 cents per hour. I know; I did this for years when I was young and in love with cars. I’m divorced from that now and enjoy watching others’ cars. A lot cheaper and less time consuming. Are you starting to see the ill concealed parallel ?

I often wonder what will happen to all the old restored cars in a depression. Can most owners keep them stored away for many years ? And how would they look if they were to drive them around in a depression ? I think that a depression scenario would reverse the form over function attitude we see all around us with the new fancy cars and big houses and attendant big debts. Bad karma to be flouting fancy possessions when many others around you are struggling to exist. Something to think about and maybe change how we appear to others before the wheels come off the economy. I have already been doing this for some time and still have a few items that need to be sold that don’t fit the lifestyle I want to project. In fact, my old ‘73 Chevy truck will make me look like the poorest guy in my neighborhood. All I need now is a broken refrigerator in the front yard and a bloodhound baying around.

A deflationary depression doesn’t have to be depressing if you are prepared. It can be a time of opportunity if you are not in debt and have money and assets. Sure there will be lots of destitute folks but that is their plight as a result of their own not having been prudent. Are you taking advantage of them by buying their assets cheap ? Heavens no ! Don’t forget that even though you may be buying an item from them that seems dirt cheap, it isn’t worth what it used to be and you can’t sell it for what it used to sell for in a good economy.

A hyperinflationary depression in which the currency loses purchasing power is a heckuva mess. I don’t think we will experience this but rather have prices rising while our wages don’t keep up. It is inflationary but gets ugly slower than a hyperinflation. Like the difference between having your privates slowly tightened in a vise as opposed to having them slammed with a hammer. This inflation is happening now and will continue until the bubble bursts. Garages, homes and storage containers are full of unused items that will come up for sale as owners become desperate for currency to pay the bills. I expect a huge fire sale when the bubble bursts. Lots of items for sale and few buyers with cash. We are seeing it in late cars now with people trying to get out from under the burden of payments. They are all over the place with for sale signs in the windows. How would you like to be one of them ? Ugh !

So we are seeing signs of things tightening up. What should we barterers and horse traders do ? Wait it out ? Not hardly ! We should be buying and selling as the economy changes. Sure, an item you bought this month for $50 could be valued at $150 in the same time period. But with the economy going south, you may only get $100 or $75 if you keep the item too long. This $100 or $75 may have more purchasing power later. What I am trying to say is that items need to be bought and sold in a timely manner; in the same economic conditions. Otherwise, you risk selling an item that you bought in a different world than in which you are selling it. For example, a piece of art that was a screaming bargain at $400 may not find any takers at any price after a crash in the markets. I know, I own such art and have sold much of it in anticipation and preparation. The art I would keep wouldn’t sell for much now but pieces I would love to have through hard times. We all have some treasures we love and would hate to part with. But if we were to consider their dollar worth now and weigh their personal attachments against the lost opportunity cost of possibly having sold them in good times, we might want to unload them while the unloading is good.

In both a rising economy and a falling economy, TIME is an important factor. In the former it can add to profits. The smart ones who bought houses before the bubble and sold out at the peak last year made a bundle. Bought at the right time and sold at the right time.

A large item like a grand piano might sell for $5K or much more in a good economy but after a crash would find few buyers. And at a low, low price. Why would I expect that ? First, it is a huge piece of furniture and most homes just don’t have the room. Second, it is a luxury item and as I said before, the economy will change from form to function. An upright piano takes a lot of less space and functions almost as well. I would expect there to be a glut of these grand pianos in the future. I don’t even want one at any price because it doesn’t fit into my lifestyle but a high quality upright console has the same strings as a baby grand and costs much less even now. A good Yamaha or Steinway would be what I would be looking for. Maybe even a good Baldwin Acrosonic would do. However, a Bosendorfer grand piano may not be for sale since they are rare and quite expensive. I saw someone who paid $95K for a used one. Out of my league anyway; even if at 5% of good times prices. I know my limitations and banging out “She Wore An Itsy Bitsy, Teenie Weenie Yellow Polka Dotted Bikini” would be criminal to play on such an instrument.

My older son has been playing drums for 10 years and would like to have a Roland electronic set but the price is about $5K used. We will be watching and waiting after the bubble bursts for fire sale prices on this item. Musicians are notorious for selling their instruments when times get tough. He is saving money now for such an opportunity. I suspect that if the time comes, he may change his mind as he considers how important this drum set is as opposed to the freedom of having money in a crash scenario. It is all a balancing act in our minds. Beautiful if you are well balanced yourself. I’m a little off but usually catch myself in time.

Didn’t mean to be so long winded.

Best wishes,

agnut

Hi Silver Gorilla. Cornering the market, hmmm… ?

Notice that in both the Tino De Angelis and Bunker Hunt examples you gave, they bought on margin and not fully paid for. They left themselves vulnerable to others’ changing the playing field.

I did something like this many years ago for a manufacturer that wanted car parts for their rebuilding program. They wanted to buy all of these particular parts so that there were few around for independent rebuilders to compete. At least that is what it looked like to me. At first I could get the parts cheaply since they were lying all over the country. After a while however, their prices began to double and then triple. I was still making a good profit but had to find more parts in order to make the same total net per month.

I wonder if there is a parallel here to what may happen to silver as the dollar loses purchasing power and investors begin to trade in their dollars for something of sustainable value. Financial advisors have said that if investors get on board in a big way, precious metal prices will go through the roof. As long as the silver supply exceeds silver demanded, prices won’t skyrocket. They will in all probability continue to rise with inflation but if an outside event like a shooting war with Iran starts and the Straits of Hormuz are blocked, oil and the precious metals would take off, at least until things stabilized. However, in such an event, I don’t see precious metals returning to their old prices. A higher base price would exist after the dust settled. Too many people would be awakened from their financial hookup to the Matrix and begin to play catch up to us here on the GIM website. The learning curve would be quick as investors would be driven by fear as well as greed in such a scenario.

The same thing happened as I bought these auto parts and ultimately upset the supply/demand balance. My buy prices kept climbing as it became harder and harder to find large quantities. The difference from acquiring precious metals and holding them was that I was getting paid as I found these parts and was compounding my investment into a fortune. I remember an investment advisor (that’s putting it nicely) who called me one day and wanted me to invest in some high interest scheme. I knew what he was up to and baited him with, “Can you guarantee me 100% interest ?” He hesitated and said that he probably could. I then said, “Well, 100% per MONTH sounds pretty good.” There was a pause in the conversation as he gathered his composure. He said that he meant 100% per year and not per month. I told him that at that time I was making over 100% per month and why should I lose money with him. He wanted to know what I was into that made so much return in such a short period of time. I just laughed to myself and got him off the phone. He was probably torn between believing me and thinking I was crazy. I liked that.

Specialized knowledge of the true value of items is to be kept to ourselves. We may have buyers waiting at specific prices far above what we can find these items for and I call this brokering. I have brokered items at times and this is an especially wonderful situation. All I had to do was find the items and turn them in to waiting buyers. Admittedly this doesn’t happen often but it is such a sweet deal that we all should be on the lookout for when the opportunity presents itself.

Cornering a market requires control of existing items, whether they be precious metals, rare coins, or many other items that have a demand. Either you must have these items in your possession or have right to them so that others cannot. The flaw as I see it is that you must hold and invest a considerable sum in order to squeeze buyers into paying more than the price at which you bought the items. A lot can go wrong here as we have seen in in the past. I don’t recommend trying to corner a market but rather to recognize a bargain and to profit.

Many years ago I was into rare coins and I saw that the 1890 proof Liberty nickel was the rarest in the set that went from 1883 to 1912. I began to purchase them and hold them since set collectors would have to buy from me if they wanted to complete their sets. There were only maybe 15 high graded at the time and their price was lower than I thought it should be. Even after having several of these coins did I realize that the coin market can move at a snail’s pace. The price didn’t go up and over time other similar coins came out of the woodwork and were being graded, thus increasing the population of 1890 proof nickels. I got out without a loss and it’s a good thing I did because since then, I have seen several similar coins being graded higher that the ones existing when I was involved. I looked closely at some of these newly graded coins and feel that they should not have been graded so highly. I also feel that the coin market has become highly speculative since I ceased to collect. Collector beware. I still collect coins but only circulated 90% dimes and Walker halves when at spot metal prices.

So what trends are we facing in the next few years ? Tough one to answer with all the uncertainty and financial unwinding going on in the world now. Kahlil Gibran posted bicycles and bicycle repair as one possibility. So much depends upon the depth and breadth and length of the coming economic downturn. Older motor homes in good condition may be a good idea when folks lose their homes. Maybe a livable boat would be good for those few who are accustomed to a seafaring life rather than paying rent in an apartment. But I think that boats being considered luxury items will take a dump. High mileage and diesel cars look good to me and I’m already into those. I read that toilet paper is energy intensive in its manufacture. Socks are cheap now but with tariffs, falling dollar and foreign manufacturers, I would expect prices to rise noticeably in the future. Shoes also.

In a crash, I imagine that necessities would go up while everything considered a luxury would fall. Look around your house and think of the things you don’t need or use and sell them in order to get more liquid. Art, extra cars, boats, dune buggies, antiques and a multitude of small items will all fall in demand and therefore price.

In a coming economic downturn, it is more important to think of all the things you may want to get rid of rather than all of the things you want to accumulate for resale unless you can sell them in short order before prices fall. Timing here is so important. Cash in hand will be powerful after a crash in the markets and all kinds of items will be dumped on the market. A huge supply with few buyers. It is at this time that those with money will be able to buy items for a song. Just remember that these items you purchase then will not be worth what they were in a good economy. As long as the music is playing, the chairs are empty but when the music stops suddenly, you can be odd man out.

Last Saturday my son and I were garage sailing (you know, like sailing on the seas of high finance) and found a small church organ with matching bench in the back of a garage. The owner asked me if I was interested. I said not really; I was looking more for a piano. He said I could have it cheap as he just wanted it out of there. Turns out, this was an estate sale held at a garage. Something to always be aware of when garage sailing. The items are often dirt cheap as the sellers just want the house cleared out so that they can sell the house. The seller said that he would take $20 for the organ and I jumped on it. I had a neighbor friend who had just bought an expensive piano and I showed the organ to him. He asked what I paid and I told him I got it for $2,000. He hesitated and said that he thought it was new as it looked so clean and played so well. I then told him that I had paid $20 for it and his jaw dropped. I wasn’t playing a cruel joke on him but trying to find out how others who don’t barter and horse trade value items. As he left, he said that the organ was probably worth $2,000. That is probably new price. But I estimate that it is probably only worth a few hundred dollars used. I could be wrong and will have to research what the market will bear before offering it for sale. At least my sons and I can have some fun with it in the meantime. The downside ? Twenty bucks invested. I could donate it and the tax benefit would be beyond that. The upside ? Maybe a ten bagger when I sell the organ.

Trusting one’s gut feeling, as mentioned in a previous post, is something learned through experience. But you have to get out there and look around. There is a whole world of items for sale and the prices asked can sometimes be so out of whack with real value that as a buyer, I still hesitate sometimes. Must be the old ingrained, “If it looks too good to be true, it probably is”. As I have said before, some deals can be amazing. Don’t be put off but rather look more deeply for flaws in your estimation of condition, real value and breadth of demand. If it still looks good and your gut feeling tells you to go ahead, do so. You will either learn a valuable lesson for future bartering and horse trading or make some good profits. I rarely lose and I’m not a rocket scientist.

The spread between the illusion of buying new and buying used is so huge that I am continually amazed that more aren’t taking advantage. All the better for me and mine.

I will tell you about a mistake I made recently. The Disney videotapes were getting high dollars a while back, especially the early ones. I bought 18 of them for a dollar each last week. Almost new with their clamshell cases in perfect condition. I looked on Ebay and the price had dropped enormously. What happened ? Well, it looks as though everyone and his cousin had decided to sell their collections at the same time. Supply overwhelming demand. When I bought them at dirt cheap prices I realized that I could use some of them for my collection and some I could either sell or give away. Now that I had discovered that some of the videotapes were not worth selling for a bundle, I can give them away. And I do that a lot. Why ? Because it is fun and you can’t put a price on giving to others. You can but at a buck each, the pleasure you give a child is priceless. I have six Disney videotapes by the door that I am giving tomorrow to a little girl who would appreciate them. Giving is a funny thing; I always get more than I give. I almost feel selfish. HaHa

With that said, I am constantly shopping throughout the year for family and friends. When Christmas comes around, I have a stockpile of items set aside so I am not in the shopping mob. I have a Jacques Cousteau book for my niece that I know she will love. And some sterling silver jewelry that will be a hit. And lots of videotapes and DVDs. Christmas cards and birthday cards can be bought at the local dollar store for a fraction of the Hallmark card prices.

This bartering and horse trading isn’t just a hit and run profit scheme but rather a lifestyle in which one is continually seeking the best value for one’s money as well as scooping up deals for wealth building. You precious metal investors out there would be well advised to imagine how you will be spending your money in the future. Learning and changing now goes hand in hand with precious metals. Otherwise, no matter how much money you have, you will lose it over time. The key is to always be building rather than dissipating wealth. Just look at the lottery winners and their sad stories.

Best wishes,

agnut

Agnut Now I know you are a man of knowledge "And a man of knowledge is one who has followed truthfully the hardships of learning," "A man who has, without faltering, gone as far as he can in unraveling the secrets of power=(money) and knowledge." And I intend to stick with what you say, I will be watching this Thread and learnig from what you are saying to others and to me. Thanks Agnut.
:character

__________________
Silver Gorilla
{Investing in Precious Metal Silver} "Within our lifetime, Nothing this good will ever stare you in the face again". Its all about Silver

Hi Silver Gorilla. Flattery will get you everywhere. HaHa.

Yeah, I guess I do have a lot of experiences. But it is what I have learned from those experiences and made a part of my way of dealing with the world that has become part of my knowledge. And as for intelligence, I don’t delude myself. I don't have to be smarter than most other guys. The critical difference is, I know what to do and I DO IT.

I know I gotta be careful here with correctly concluding what really happened rather than to kid myself.

Sometimes I just fall into a deal and shouldn’t take any more credit than to have been at the right place at the right time. The point here is that I am out and about and where I may see or hear of a good deal. You can’t sit back in a recliner and expect the deals to come to you. All of these items are inanimate objects and they have no way of driving over and knocking on your door. Also, the owners of these inanimate items are often little more than inanimate themselves. There is treasure hiding out in barns, basements, garages and attics all over the country.

I can’t count the number of times that I asked someone questions and ended up with a bargain that was unknown to me before. This is a HUGE point to remember. When I go to a garage sale I often ask the seller what else they have for sale. I also ask them if they have something I may be looking for like old vinyl records or a trailer or a boat out back or a car not being used. I may also ask the seller if they know anybody who might have what I am looking for. Since talk is free, results can provide an infinity bagger of profit. Your measure of success depends upon your ability to communicate with others. Americans as a whole are wonderful, honest people and they will help you in many cases if you only ask. Seek and ye shall find.

Yesterday my son and I were at a garage sale and as we were heading down the driveway, a lady and her friend were leaving with a set of large canning pots. I said, “Oh man, you beat me to it”. They laughed and one lady said that it was for sale for $10. I looked it over as the other lady piped in with, “Hey, that’s mine and it‘s not for sale”. Their was a price tag on it for $3. There were several things going on here; I was having fun with other sellers, I was making them feel good to have beat me to a bargain, and I was in a happy frame of mind as I entered the garage sale.

I asked the seller if she had any video tapes or DVDs. She went into the house and brought out 9 DVDs. She sold them for a dollar each. At that price I didn’t need to haggle; it would have made the seller angry anyway. They just wanted everything gone before they sold the house. Like an estate sale, moving sales can be a great source of screaming bargains. I almost felt guilty getting the items so cheap. I said almost. There were other buyers there but they must have had some specific items wanted in their minds and were not looking for value right in front of their noses.

I began to pile up the items I wanted while I was paying for them. I knew I had to act fast because when other buyers see someone buying several items, they tend to get excited and stampede like cattle in a thunderstorm. Most of their items had no price tags and buyers are reluctant to ask under such circumstances. Not me ! This is a opportunity, not a problem. Twice I had to tell other buyers that the items in my pile were already sold. I had my son take them to the car while I continued buying.

There was a Bissell bagless HEPA vacuum cleaner for sale for $2. I had been wanting one for a long time. Of course I snagged it. Our old vacuum doesn’t begin to compare and it will be, you guessed it, at our next gar(b)age sale. Upgrading your appliances is a good idea when the price is right.

I also bought four outdoor extension cords for a total of $3. One was a 100’ and the others were 25’ to 50’. I needed them for my own use and would have had to buy them new otherwise. She also threw in a self powered big rear wheel Craftsman lawn mower that needed the carburetor cleaned out. I got it running that afternoon and will tune it up later before I sell it. Sleeping bags and tents for $2 each plus many other goodies too hard to resist. I am teaching my younger son the art of deal making and am splitting the profits with him 50-50. It is not only fun but profitable. Lessons that my son will remember the rest of his life. What more could I ask to do on a Saturday morning ?

The best deal was a group of 3 ladders for $20. One was a light 6’ aluminum one. Another was an 8” wooden ladder by Werner. I consider Werner about the best brand around. The third was an aluminum 28’ extension ladder also by Werner. This last ladder would sell for at least $100 al a garage sale. One just sold today on Ebay for $150. I didn’t know how much the last ladder was worth since I had never priced one but trusted my gut feeling. Also, my second story rain gutters need cleaning and I am not willing to have to pay someone else. More money saved. The bargain that keeps on giving. It’s hard to sell something that saves you money, even if there is a good profit potential. Something to weigh out as you are buying and selling.

After the garage sailing I realized that I was buying items with the mindset of what they would sell for at other garage sales in my area. Items that were $100 new might sell for $20 at a local garage sale. But I was looking for the same valued items selling for $2 to $5. Profit would be $18 to $15, getting a four to nine bagger return at my own garage sale.

I recommend that you separate your garage sale buying into items you need for yourself and items you want for resale. Items you just want that have no future profit potential are best avoided because you would be parking your money with no return expected. This is what most garage sale buyers do. But you are there with a purpose; you have your guns loaded and know what you are hunting for.

I get the feeling that some readers are wondering where and how to sell their bargain items. There are swap meets, their own garage sales, ads in the paper, consignments, friends and neighbors.

These were really wonderful people and I enjoyed the time I spent with them. We joked around a lot and shared several stories. The father took my son and me out back to look at the bass in his pond. These people were selling their house and flying to Florida and they were shipping almost nothing. Their daughter is a gifted artist and I bought one of her early paintings for $5. It is incredible and sitting in my computer room right now. I found out that she loves going fishing and crabbing and told her that we would take her. I got her number and put it in my permanent directory. Might be a new friend here, time will tell.

Remember, goodwill is a form of profit. If you find a hot deal that you think someone you know would go nuts over, the look on their faces when you surprise them with it is high payoff indeed. This bartering and horse trading ain’t just about collecting profits but also about sharing yourself with others. Who knows, a gift item might get a friend to accompany you on the hunt.

Best wishes,

agnut

Find a steal, let’s wheel and deal.

Agnut EXCELLENT!!! REPLY ...Thanks again for All very excellent points! Some things I’ve had to learn the hard way in my life. Is their any other advice from any one els....................Agunt if you have any other Advices pleas share with us....... the goodys

__________________
Silver Gorilla
{Investing in Precious Metal Silver} "Within our lifetime, Nothing this good will ever stare you in the face again". Its all about Silver

Hi Silver Gorilla. Yeah, the hard way is how most humans learn. But it doesn’t have to be that way. Some people think and some people think they think. Don’tcha think ?

Let’s talk about financial security. What is this slippery concept anyway ? Slippery because we are living in a world of fiat currency, a world of illusion and uncertainty. When gold and silver were our money we had stability we could count upon. An ounce has always been an ounce and will always be an ounce. But numbers on a piece of paper denoting purchasing value can have zeroes added at literally no cost. Remember the hyperinflation of 1922-23 Germany ?

The days of precious metal money are history for the general populace. The reporting of the M3 money supply has been discontinued. Why ? Because it reveals how much fiat dollars are being increased and this sets off alarm bells with investors. So much for security in bonds and all other paper investments for that matter.

Studying and Investing in the precious metals is at the core of the GIM website. There is nothing quite like it on the internet. G-Khan and moderators have no hidden agenda to manipulate others. Just the facts, ma’am. We all have to make up our minds and act on what we believe is the best course of action. Truth rings like a silver bell while lies clunk like an old cow bell.

The thing is that you have to be here in order to hear the silver bells. They are not rung on the boob tube. In fact, the media has rung the clunking cow bell so long and so loud that investors have come to believe it to be music to their ears. Talk about tone deaf !

I’m trying to do my part with this bartering and horse trading thread. I feel that getting the message of what silver and gold mean to our financial security is only part of the package, albeit a foundational part. We also need to learn how to get the best value for our money now and for that increasingly uncertain future. It would be a tragedy if those wise enough to accumulate precious metals were not knowledgeable enough to make their wealth work for them to its fullest potential.

I have bought sterling silver for several years now as a hedge against precious metal confiscation threats. While at first glance, it may seem foolish but further thought and investigation and imagination may prove it to be a wise diversification within a diversification. It is a risk which costs me nothing more that if I were to instead buy bullion. Admittedly it is not as liquid as having silver rounds but with the risk of confiscation offsets to some degree.

Can you imagine what would happen if our government were to once again declare precious metals illegal to possess ? A $100,000 fine and 5 years in jail ? Well, everyone seems to react with saying that this would drive the precious metals underground (a double entendre) into the black market and therefore these precious metals would be far more valuable. But imagine yourself in such a scenario. Would you feel comfortable buying necessities on the black market with the risks of being turned in each time you traded your precious metal bullion for goods ? It would be like being a drug dealer; you would have to know who you are dealing with very well because there would in all probability be a reward for turning you in. And we all know how people are these days.

Additionally, in such a scenario, I rate sterling silver (and gold jewelry) as being much less subject to confiscation or restriction. My reasoning is that sterling silver is fabricated art and includes not only dinnerware but also jewelry. Could you imagine the furor if government were to try to confiscate citizens’ dinnerware as well as their jewelry ? And who wears sterling silver jewelry anyhow ? The ladies. And if momma ain’t happy, ain’t nobody gonna be happy. Confiscation of sterling silver may well cause a sudden wakeup and revolution to what our government is doing to us citizens. It is a judgment call on my part and only time will tell whether I am right. You will have to decide for yourselves. Sterling silver at 92.5% pure silver could become quite desirable since so few have it in their possession and therefore it may become the only legally tradable precious metal.

Sterling silver has become part of my family’s daily life. We eat with sterling silver utensils rather than stainless steel. Health benefits are just a bonus. Besides, it is beautiful and the artistry of some of the antique pieces blows my mind. Can’t do that with bullion, can ya ?

I know, it may have been better to have posted this sterling opinion elsewhere but in your search you should be on the lookout for sterling silver. It is not easy to find and even the uninitiated usually know its value but there are bargains to be had occasionally. A while back I was garage sailing and a lady had several items I wanted. I gathered them together and made a package deal. Among the items were a sterling silver sugar bowl and creamer. I paid less for everything that the two sterling items were worth. Like getting some things for nothing by using my head.

In the past I have found some incredible sterling silver collections on Ebay. There are some good deals still but you have to be careful and know what is the most you will pay and stick with it. Foolish to get into a bidding war. There will be other deals. There are always other deals. I’m not buying right now so you have a better chance to snag some deals. HaHa, like I could affect the market.

Times change and attitudes change as a result. The first to see the writing on the wall and change strategy will benefit the most. So we look to the future with only the tools of our knowledge and study of history.

I believe that we are facing great changes that will transform our society and I for one want to be on shore while the masses are swept down river and over the falls. I feel sorry for them but have to take of my loved ones above all.

Best wishes,

agnut

Hi again. I spoke with Ponce and he brought up an interesting point about selling or trading sterling silver after a crash.

He said that someone selling sterling silver probably wouldn’t be thought of as having an additional hoard back at home (just selling some of the family silverware or personal jewelry) whereas someone selling silver rounds would attract more attention and supposition that you are a precious metal hoarder and therefore leaving yourself vulnerable to future robbery.

All you have to do is imagine yourself in such a scenario and it should become clear. I have to thank Ponce for this tidbit of insight and wisdom. You can’t believe where his mind is capable of going at times. Remember what he said many times, “If you don’t hold it, you don’t own it”.

I’m not asking you to go out and buy sterling silver as opposed to silver bullion but instead that you consider if this option makes sense to you. Since I am into sterling silver, I feel obligated to tell you why it makes sense to me.

Although this sterling silver (and fabricated gold jewelry) may seem a bit off topic to bartering and horse trading, it is at the foundation of your wealth preservation right along with gold and silver. I offer its qualities of tradability in a confiscation scenario. It may not come about but I for one am not willing to trust what the government will legislate regarding bullion. Just look to history and remember that they have already done it. And history has a way of repeating, doesn’t it ?

Time to move on to more bartering and horse trading. I know some of you are wondering when we get to the 10 and 20 baggers and where to find them. It should be obvious now why I had to start this thread with the small deals and work up to the big deals. The philosophy and rules are essentially the same.

I am looking at a Gary Larson cartoon I have over my desk. It depicts a frumpy Einstein standing before a blackboard filled with a complex equation which ends in =$. The caption says “Einstein discovers that time is actually money”.

I keep this enlarged and framed cartoon in front of me to remind myself that time spent on an endeavor is relative to the return gained. We all invest time to some end. I remember many years ago when I restored classic Jaguars to show condition. One car took two and a half years of my spare time until completion. The profit per hour invested was about 10 cents ! Almost centsless.

The point here is that we all need to look at any deal and calculate how much we will make per hour of our valuable time invested. Time, like real estate operates under the highest and best use rule. If a property is worth more with the structures torn down and replaced, that is a higher and best use rule in action. If you find a car that needs repair in order to sell it for a profit, you need to calculate how much money you need to spend AND how many hours you need to invest. It is not always easy but must be a part of your attempting to get a handle on whether or not to proceed with the deal.

In a previous post I related a deal where I made a $57,000 profit on a $3,000 investment. It only took a few hours from beginning to end. My per hour profit was in the stratosphere but all the other linear thinking deals I was making brought it down to earth. To find and execute large incredible deals continually is an ideal though rarely attained. I realize that small deals that make 10 or 20 times the investment are wonderful but we all need to let our imagination fly free. As I stated before, it can be the same work to make a $100 deal as a $10,000 deal.

Again, where are these fantastic deals ? Well, you will have to use your imagination.

Are there any companies going out of business and selling their inventories and equipment for a song ?

Could an ad in the paper offering to buy out estates yield great profits ?

Could a company need raw materials or rebuildable cores for their production line ?

Are there any poorly managed companies that could be bought and increased and sold for a profit ?

Is there any land that could be split up and sold for a profit ?

Are there any auctions going on in your area ?

All of these require dollar investment and time investment and must be assessed before jumping in. It is said that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Look around and see if there are any successful entrepreneurs worthy if imitation.

I’m going to shift gears into what may seem like a crawl but bear with me here.

Suppose you had a deal with a manufacturer to drop ship their items you could sell. Suppose they charged $100 to you and you sold the item for $110. Hey, that’s only a tenth bagger ! What the Hell, agnut; have you gone crazy ?

But suppose you could sell a thousand of these items a day and it was all computer operated with no time spent on your part except counting the money. That’s $10,000 per day profit and on a tenth bagger too. So don’t just be looking for the big score but how much money you can have coming in in a specific period of time. Again, TIME IS MONEY.

There are people all over the internet doing this drop shipping and they don’t seem to be going broke. Look on Ebay at the people selling DVD movies. How many transactions have they done ? Some in the many thousands. Appliances of all sorts are also being sold this way.

Twenty years ago an old man taught me two things. First he said “We got”. In other words, have the goods or be able to get the goods. Customers return if you can satisfy their needs; otherwise they go elsewhere. The second was to sell for a profit as fast as possible. Turnover, even at a low percentage return, can make you rich as I have shown in the preceding paragraph. Of course, it depends upon what you are dealing with.

For years I have been thinking of some low dollar item that the masses would buy. Something that could capture their fascination or even their daily needs. I have invented tools that don’t exist to do a particular operation but the potential numbers of buyers just weren’t there. No sense going into manufacturing for a pittance.

I remember seeing an ad for a sure fire roach killer. It turned out to be a pair of wooden blocks with a large X on one side. The instructions were to place the roach on the X and smack with the other block. It became a gag gift and was probably quite successful.

And remember the pet rock ? What genius came up with that ?

Let’s not forget the Chia pet either. Sprouts growing out of a clay figurine. Whoda thunk ?

And the water monkeys are still going after all these years.

I know, sounds ridiculous but I think if such inane things can find a wide market a sensible idea could kick butt.

I have a couple of ideas that I have been thinking about for a few years that I believe would make a bundle if marketed properly. I have a prototype of one and need to refine it before presenting it to a major company I have in mind. The other has been floating around in my head for years and I would have to buy equipment to experiment in order to make a workable prototype. I know both would sell but can’t estimate the potential although they could conceivably each sell in the millions. Nothing like them exists as far as I know. They probably aren’t even patentable and therefore lack imitator protection.

So why don’t I proceed with these ideas ? I know that most inventions never ultimately make money. Look at all the millions of patents and the percentage that just lay there like a limp noodle. The time needed to get my ideas to market is hard to guess. Another consideration is how long the economy will continue until it takes a dirt nap. Seems like it could happen any time now. And this brings me to the subject of the future and how to be positioned as a barterer and horse trader.

First, and above all you need to be liquid at all times. Have cash on hand to buy the deals. Bank checks don’t cut it. Cash talks and bullshit walks. Some deals take place over the weekend when the banks are closed and you can’t get cash right away. Another buyer with the cash can nab the deal. You can usually negotiate a deal more favorable with cash and make the seller know you have cash before you haggle the price. I can’t count the number of times that this has sealed the deal. Think of what the seller is thinking. He has the item which can’t be traded for what he wants. And you have the cash right in front of him which buys almost anything. He is at a huge disadvantage, especially if he is in need of cash. An estate sale where the sellers just want the items out of there at any price is as good as a desperate seller. So know where your seller’s head is at. You can read him if you will only talk with him a bit.

Second, you are aware of the fragility of our economy and therefore should be aware that items you may have bought but not yet sold could have a drop in sale price after a crash. Like musical chairs, you must always listen closely for when the music stops. The quicker you can sell an item the better, even if you don’t get quite as much profit as you might have. It is a matter of weighing the increased profit against the future’s stability. This is your own call and I can’t tell you when to sell. Learn when to hold ‘em, when to fold ‘em, when to walk away, when to run.

Third, you need to maintain your composure and focus even when others around you are discomboobulated. Someone once asked me what hobby I had and without thinking I said that I collect money. I went further and clarified that I buy and sell items for a profit. I could see the lights going off in his head. I don’t know if they stayed on or he blew a fuse.

And last, your sense of humor sets the stage for better deal making. Treat deals like you are at a party. I usually joke around with everyone and have a lot of fun while saving and making money. After all, it is my hobby and I should be enjoying myself. Right ?

Best wishes,

Agnut

Dear Agunt your post deserves a long and professional reply, sorry for the wait, a few days ago I read your post on sterling silver, It was something that I had in mind for mounths, so I got out there and started to buy the good stuf, but is was not enough to satisfy my needs for Silver, well any way I will keep buying untell so, Hay Agunt i was reading a book a few days back and it was a very good book it's about the OLD MEDIAEVAL TRADE AND HOW THE CRUSADES ONCE MORE MADE THE MEDITERRANEAN A BUSY CENTRE OF TRADE AND HOW THE CITIES OF THE ITALIAN PENINSULA BECAME THE GREAT DISTRIBUTING CENTRE FOR THE COMMERCE WITH ASIA AND AFRICA
you got to read this, I dont know if this is the right place for posting something about this book but ill try to see what I get back from others if thay read it, Well There were three good reasons why the Italian cities should have been the first to regain a position of great importance during the late Middle Ages. The Italian peninsula had been settled by Rome at a very early date. There had been more roads and more towns and more schools than anywhere else in Europe. The barbarians had burned as lustily in Italy as elsewhere, but there had been so much to destroy that more had been able to survive. In the second place, the Pope lived in Italy and as the head of a vast political machine, which owned land and serfs and buildings and forests and rivers and conducted courts of law, he was in constant receipt of a great deal of money. The Papal authorities had to be paid in gold and silver as did the merchants and ship-owners of Venice and Genoa. The cows and the eggs and the horses and all the other agricultural products of the north and the west must be changed into actual cash before the debt could be paid in the distant city of Rome. This made Italy the one country where there was a comparative abundance of gold and silver. Finally, during the Crusades, the Italian cities had become the point of embarkation for the Crusaders and had profiteered to an almost unbelievable extent. And after the Crusades had come to an end, these same Italian cities remained the distributing centres for those Oriental goods upon which the people of Europe had come to depend during the time they had spent in the near east. Of these towns, few were as famous as Venice.

Venice was a republic built upon a mud bank. Thither people from the mainland had fled during the invasions of the barbarians in the fourth century. Surrounded on all sides by the sea they had engaged in the business of salt-making. Salt had been very scarce during the Middle Ages, and the price had been high. For hundreds of years Venice had enjoyed a monopoly of this indispensable table commodity (I say indispensable, because people, like sheep, fall ill unless they get a certain amount of salt in their food). The people had used this monopoly to increase the power of their city. At times they had even dared to defy the power of the Popes. The town had grown rich and had begun to build ships, which engaged in trade with the Orient. During the Crusades, these ships were used to carry passengers to the Holy Land, and when the passengers could not pay for their tickets in cash, they were obliged to help the Venetians who were for ever increasing their colonies in the AEgean Sea, in Asia Minor and in Egypt. By the end of the fourteenth century, the population had grown to two hundred thousand, which made Venice the biggest city of the Middle Ages. The people were without influence upon the government which was the private affair of a small number of rich merchant families. They elected a senate and a Doge (or Duke), but the actual rulers of the city were the members of the famous Council of Ten,—who maintained themselves with the help of a highly organised system of secret service men and professional murderers, who kept watch upon all citizens and quietly removed those who might be dangerous to the safety of their high-handed and unscrupulous Committee of Public Safety.
The other extreme of government, a democracy of very turbulent habits, was to be found in Florence. This city controlled the main road from northern Europe to Rome and used the money which it had derived from this fortunate economic position to engage in manufacturing. The Florentines tried to follow the example of Athens. Noblemen, priests and members of the guilds all took part in the discussions of civic affairs. This led to great civic upheaval. People were forever being divided into political parties and these parties fought each other with intense bitterness and exiled their enemies and confiscated their possessions as soon as they had gained a victory in the council. After several centuries of this rule by organised mobs, the inevitable happened.

A powerful family made itself master of the city and governed the town and the surrounding country after the fashion of the old Greek "tyrants." They were called the Medici. The earliest Medici had been physicians (medicus is Latin for physician), but later they had turned banker. Their banks and their pawnshops were to be found in all the more important centres of trade. Even today our American pawn-shops display the three golden balls which were part of the coat of arms of the mighty house of the Medici, who became rulers of Florence and married their daughters to the kings of France and were buried in graves worthy of a Roman Caesar. Then there was Genoa, the great rival of Venice, where the merchants specialised in trade with Tunis in Africa and the grain depots of the Black Sea. Then there were more than two hundred other cities, some large and some small, each a perfect commercial unit, all of them fighting their neighbours and rivals with the undying hatred of neighbours who are depriving each other of their profits. Once the products of the Orient and Africa had been brought to these distributing centres, they must be prepared for the voyage to the west and the north.
Genoa carried her goods by water to Marseilles, from where they were reshipped to the cities along the Rhone, which in turn served as the market places of northern and western France. Venice used the land route to northern Europe.

This ancient road led across the Brenner pass, the old gateway for the barbarians who had invaded Italy. Past Innsbruck, the merchandise was carried to Basel. From there it drifted down the Rhine to the North Sea and England, or it was taken to Augsburg where the Fugger family (who were both bankers and manufacturers and who prospered greatly by "shaving" the coins with which they paid their workmen), looked after the further distribution to Nuremberg and Leipzig and the cities of the Baltic and to Wisby (on the Island of Gotland) which looked after the needs of the Northern Baltic and dealt directly with the Republic of Novgorod, the old commercial centre of Russia which was destroyed by Ivan the Terrible in the middle of the sixteenth century. The little cities on the coast of north-western Europe had an interesting story of their own. The mediaeval world ate a great deal of fish. There were many fast days and then people were not permitted to eat meat. For those who lived away from the coast and from the rivers, this meant a diet of eggs or nothing at all. But early in the thirteenth century a Dutch fisherman had discovered a way of curing herring, so that it could be transported to distant points. The herring fisheries of the North Sea then became of great importance. But some time during the thirteenth century, this useful little fish (for reasons of its own) moved from the North Sea to the Baltic and the cities of that inland sea began to make money. All the world now sailed to the Baltic to catch herring and as that fish could only be caught during a few months each year (the rest of the time it spends in deep water, raising large families of little herrings) the ships would have been idle during the rest of the time unless they had found another occupation. They were then used to carry the wheat of northern and central Russia to southern and western Europe. On the return voyage they brought spices and silks and carpets and Oriental rugs from Venice and Genoa to Bruges and Hamburg and Bremen. Out of such simple beginnings there developed an important system of international trade which reached from the manufacturing cities of Bruges and Ghent (where the almighty guilds fought pitched battles with the kings of France and England and established a labour tyranny which completely ruined both the employers and the workmen) to the Republic of Novgorod in northern Russia, which was a mighty city until Tsar Ivan, who distrusted all merchants, took the town and killed sixty thousand people in less than a month's time and reduced the survivors to beggary.

That they might protect themselves against pirates and excessive tolls and annoying legislation, the merchants of the north founded a protective league which was called the "Hansa." The Hansa, which had its headquarters in Lubeck, was a voluntary association of more than one hundred cities. The association maintained a navy of its own which patrolled the seas and fought and defeated the Kings of England and Denmark when they dared to interfere with the rights and the privileges of the mighty Hanseatic merchants. I wish that I had more to tell you some of the wonderful stories of this strange commerce which was carried on across the high mountains and across the deep seas amidst such dangers that every voyage became a glorious adventure. But it would take several post's and it cannot be done here. I hope that I have told you enough about this book to make you curious to read about the OLD MEDIAEVAL TRADE. Well the Middle Ages, as I have tried to show you, had been a period of very slow progress. The people who were in power believed that "progress" was a very undesirable invention of the Evil One and ought to be discouraged, and as they happened to occupy the seats of the mighty, it was easy to enforce their will upon the patient serfs and the illiterate knights. Here and there a few brave souls sometimes ventured forth into the forbidden region of science, but they fared badly and were considered lucky when they escaped with their lives and a jail sentence of twenty years. In the twelfth and thirteenth centuries the flood of international commerce swept over western Europe as the Nile had swept across the valley of ancient Egypt. It left behind a fertile sediment of prosperity. Prosperity meant leisure hours and these leisure hours gave both men and women a chance to buy manuscripts and take an interest in literature and art and music. Then once more was the world filled with that divine curiosity which has elevated man from the ranks of those other mammals who are his distant cousins but who have remained dumb, and the cities, of whose growth and development offered a safe shelter to these brave pioneers who dared to leave the very narrow domain of the established order of things. They set to work. They opened the windows of their cloistered and studious cells. A flood of sunlight entered the dusty rooms and showed them the cobwebs which had gathered during the long period of semi-darkness. They began to clean house. Next they cleaned their gardens.

Then they went out into the open fields, outside the crumbling town walls, and said, "This is a good world. We are glad that we live in it."

At that moment, the Middle Ages came to an end and a new world began.

Well I hope that this post did not jump out of content...

__________________
Silver Gorilla
{Investing in Precious Metal Silver} "Within our lifetime, Nothing this good will ever stare you in the face again". Its all about Silver

This is a Awsome thread.

I just registered, and want to say thanks to everyone who has contributed to this topic. I have been thinking about trying out this "Bartering & Horse trading" Thing i read about here, but i am having a hard time pulling the trigger on anything.

I really dont know how to put a value on things i see. I guess it takes some time to study values of items, before jumping into the game?

I have around $2k Cash to start with. Only problem is i really don't know where to start.


Anyway, im looking forward to more replys on this thread.

Good to meet everyone

Hi Silver Gorilla and thanks. Your last post, #163, was quite a history lesson. Nowadays, the money power rests upon the shaky pillars of fiat currency, political deceptions and military power. And let’s not forget media owned by big corporations. Except for the fiat currency, not much different than the past. So where are we, the little guys, going to find our financial freedom ?

The internet has been a miracle in exposing truths and providing information that was not easily available in the past. Sure there are a lot of untruths to sift through but like gold panning, we wash away the worthless material and retain what is valuable. Like gold, truth is heavy.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. We can look back at recent history and see that collecting baseball cards and so many other collectables (although attractive and fun) and learn that they have little intrinsic value in relation to their price. This is why they lose so much purchasing value when the economy bites the big one.

We are in a great era of moving from form to function and will be doing so for some time until practicality has wrung out all of the excess value of collectibles and to a lesser extent all physical items. What is the value of a painting on the wall when you don’t have enough money for rent or food to eat ? And what is the value of a boat or a poor MPG car after a economic crash ? We must think to the future and position ourselves to be as comfortable (or as little uncomfortable) as possible.

In silver musings VI, Think 10 Times, I wrote about some of this future thinking and what could be done now to adjust finances in order to fit this future.

t=9021

This bartering and horse trading thread is about what I consider an important set of tools to deal with what future I envision. It is actually a set of tools that can make a dramatic difference right now as well as provide for us when things get tough. It is a win-win way of changing our perceptions of what is valuable and what is not in preparation for the increasing functional future.

It may seem like heresy but even the precious metals can have a higher and better use than as storage of wealth. Say you have 5 thousand ounces of silver and an opportunity presents itself where you could double your money in a month. At this time you have to calculate the relative possible increase in silver’s price in that month as opposed to the opportunity to double your money. I should add that you never be out of precious metals completely but if you were to lose this doubling opportunity as opposed to continuing to hold a thousand ounces, you may well also lose the ability to increase your wealth. We all have ongoing expenses and what income beyond that is excess best used for savings and possible profitable ventures. However, if you have no cash and only precious metals, you are primarily waiting for them to gain purchasing power. You will have to consider for yourselves when and if this short term selling of your precious metals in order to make a profitable deal is worth the risk.

Never lose sight of your goal of holding true wealth and increasing it through opportunities.

About 18 months ago I received a considerable sum of money and had to decide whether to put it all into precious metals or to start a business. I put most of it into the business. One reason is that I know this business well and another is that my older son wanted to learn a trade for his future. It wasn’t an easy choice; I could have instead been buying and selling items full time without all the investment and red tape that a business requires. My son and his future is important to me and this weighed most heavily. See, sometimes a decision isn’t all dollars and cents. Since then, silver has gone up but the value of my business investment has also gone up. Also my son and I are closer than ever. Can’t put a value on that.

In time when my son is fully trained and takes over the business, I will be free to look for profitable items as well as inventories of defunct companies. Right now I have bitten off more than I can chew. HaHa

Funny thing but I seem to work best when under pressure. I have profitable projects that I know won’t be completed for many months but they are there for when I get the time. I guess this is like an insurance policy if business sales volume drops in the future.

As your post ended with “At that moment, the Middle Ages came to an end and a new world began.”, we are now living in a time of opportunities that were not available to the common man. We are not serfs or slaves to a draconian system. Well, not yet anyway.

Through being wise shoppers as well as good deal makers we may become as islands of prosperity in future seas of uncertainty and turmoil.

With all thy getting, get knowledge. Ben Franklin said to put all your money into education; it’s the one thing they can’t take away from you. Accumulating true wealth, keeping it and making it grow should be the result of this education.

Maybe talking about cars and transportation next would be a good topic next since it is the second largest expense for many (and needn’t be).

Best wishes,
agnut

Hi Silver Monkey and welcome to the GIM website.

I know this bartering and horse trading thread is getting quite long but I would recommend that you read it again and take notes and ask any questions you may have.

You have $2k to start with and that is more than you need. If you will think of what you have been buying in the past and how you can improve in the future, you will have made the first step. Buying wisely like food on sale or with coupons. Buying at garage sales rather than new can save a considerable amount. And garage sales is where you can find some great deals that you can sell for a profit later. The three ladders I bought for $20 total can be sold for at least $150 if I want. But right now I need them and have added them to my “wealth”. Having items that save you money is another side benefit of acquiring bargain items. They are like tools that you can use to repair your car or house rather than paying someone else to do the job. You can always sell them later for a profit. Always remember that you are using after tax money to pay for others to do what you may be able to do yourself. And that is powerful money. So why give it to others ? Being self reliant is only part of the package in your quest to gain control over your finances.

If I were you I would start small and only buy items that seem to be screaming bargains. An item at a garage sale that was $400 new and is offered for $20 is an example as long as there is a demand for that item. Like the Werner ladders I got the other day. You can always look but not buy for a while in order to get a feel for values. You will be passing up some steals but you will instead be educating yourself along the way. Take notes of items offered and check their value later and this will give you some idea of values. And if you find some item that you find out was a screaming bargain, you may be able to return to the seller and buy it later. It is best to buy on the spot as long as you know what an item is really worth.

Also be especially on the lookout for garage sales that are actually estate sales; many times the sellers just want the items out of there at any price. I have run across several of these lately and they have been goldmines.

Of course have a list of items that you need that you would otherwise buy new. Like a lawnmower or a couch or a TV. It could be most anything. The profit here is in the savings from not having bought at retail plus sales tax. A big, big savings.

Best wishes,

agnut

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Hi Paine Reliver. Welcome to the GIM website. It sounds like you are already in the thick of deal making. When my son and I go to garage sales, we look at items and imagine what they would sell for at our own garage sale. That way, we are buying items that are not only far below what they would cost in a store but also a bargain when compared to what they should be selling for at a typical garage sale.

A week ago my son and I went to a community garage sale. There were about 115 of them all in a gated community. I knew in advance what kind of neighborhood we would be dealing with. Upper income people. Nice homes and therefore high quality merchandise. Also I have found that in such neighborhoods, the sellers are willing to haggle the price.

I got a 9.9 Evinrude long shaft outboard motor with tank for $200. He even threw in a couple of sets of high end snow skis, poles and boots. They may seem insignificant but when fall comes around they may be easy to sell. Some items are seasonal and holding them for several months must go into the equation of turnover of merchandise. In this case, the ski equipment costs me nothing but the storage room necessary. I also recommend putting them out when you have a garage sale even if it is in the summer. You never know; you might have a buyer who thinks they are just what he has been looking for and has the gray cells to think ahead to the next ski season. Funny that so many people live in the here and now and don’t envision what they will need in the future. This ability to plan ahead is foundational to wise buying of items.

Now this boat motor is probably worth $450 to $600 as some boat enthusiasts have told me since I bought it. I didn’t know exactly what it was worth on the market but had a gut feeling. I tried to bargain him down to $150 but he held the price while throwing in the ski sets to sweeten the deal. If I sell the skis for $50, I will have gotten the boat motor for $150. One way of looking at it.

I know of someone who used to buy ski boats in the fall and trade them for sand buggies. Then in the spring, he sells ski boats and takes in trade sand buggies. It is an ongoing business wherein he has six months until the peak of the next season. This was in the southern California area where thousands go to the Colorado river in the summer and the sand dunes in the winter. I used to race my buggy in the winters but ran the boat in the ocean in the summer. I wasn’t too crazy about all the drunken boat drivers on the river. The high horsepower egomaniac scenario combined with babes in bikinis and alcohol can be a deadly mix. At least on the sand dunes, drunken drivers don’t last long and usually only hurt themselves. However it is dangerous when in a crowded sand dune. Every year a few morons get themselves killed out there.

I recall that I tried to sell my buggy and had no luck. So I started selling the engine, transaxle and each part and actually came out better that the complete vehicle. Parting out a complete dune buggy is practically unheard of but there are often more ways to sell an item if you will think about it.

Back to the garage sale. There was a set of 11 Disney children’s books that were about each of the Disney classic movies like Lion King, Sleeping Beauty, etc. They were in perfect condition and only a dime each. So why did I buy such a small item ? Well, first they were a screaming bargain. Second I will have more merchandise at my next garage sale. And third I may give them to friends or family for their children. A $1.10 investment can go a long way in goodwill, wouldn’t you say ?

I also found two fishing rods and reels. The reels were made by Penn and I know they are high quality and easily salable. After haggling I paid $15 for all. Might sell them but may need them for fishing. A while back I got about 18 or 20 rods and reels in a big basket for $20 and I haven’t even looked at them since. Some nice gear as I recall. My original fishing gear cost about $2000 when I was young and foolish. I won’t ever do that again. The learning never ends.

Yesterday my son and I went out again and found several small items. A large American made cast iron skillet for $3. We are starting to collect them and get away from using Teflon fry pans. Besides, I will have to contact Masonic Plot who posted about these cast iron fry pans and see what they are worth. He turned me on to their real value but I need to know more before I buy with abandon. Many of them are antique and collectable as well as useable. I will have to scan Ebay to see what they are selling for.

I also bought a marine voltage converter to charge batteries when tied up to the dock. It costs over $400 new and I paid $15. Hey, sometimes I don’t know what I am doing but am running on gut instinct alone. It always pays off. I’m not bragging but trying to show you that even buying an item and not knowing what it can be sold for will usually work out. I should tell you that I am looking for anything that looks too cheap. Often sellers will tell me what it cost them new. Some sellers don’t care if they paid $400 new; they just want it out of their garage. Especially in the more affluent neighborhoods.

You should learn to quickly size up a garage sale. Are the prices too high ? Some sellers overprice their items and will still have them to store until next time, especially if they will not haggle. I like to start with a garage sale that has their items priced low to begin with. I typically set aside several items and ask for a discount for the whole shebang. It always works. Look at it from the seller’s point of view. Here is a buyer willing to take several items all at once. Makes it hard for them to say no, doesn’t it ? I let them tell me what they are willing to discount a group buy for. They are usually generous if you give them a chance. And happy with the deal.

Profits are not all in dollars and cents. Think of profits as benefits gained not just for yourself but for those around you. As I have said before, giving to others and bettering their lives is priceless. When I am garage sailing I often find goodies for a specific person in mind.

I like to think of the overview of bargain hunting as a fun outing. I never know what I will find and therefore keep an open mind. The goods are displayed and I can scan them in a couple of minutes before going on to the next garage sale. I have a map of my area and put Post-Its with addresses beside the location. I also list them by priority of what seems most promising from their newspaper ad. Also, we are always on the lookout for any unadvertised garage sales as we are on the road. Only the people who see their placards on the corner will even know that they exist and therefore there are much less buyers to compete with.

And garage sailing in stormy weather is an interesting situation. Some sellers close up shop but I knock on the door anyway. They usually let me in to see what they have. I have bought several items this way. Again, think from the seller’s point of view. You are the only buyer there and have gone through some nasty weather to get there in the first place. You obviously are determined and for real. Imagine how they would feel if they turned you away when you are willing to give them money in a scenario where they must be disappointed at not being able to hold a garage sale, especially when they went to the work and advertising expense. Be careful in this situation to not haggle too hard as there are no other buyers as witnesses and you may get thrown out on your ear. I have never had this happen but think it is a possibility.

An item worth $100 and for sale for $10 shouldn’t be haggled over. But as I said, if you can pile a bunch of items together and get a discount, that will work best. It is just my way of dealing that is comfortable for me. I don’t like to make the seller feel like he has been skinned alive. So what if I have to make an extra deal once in a while to make up for some item I could have grinded on the seller for. It is a game of give and take.

Take notes and get phone numbers of sellers that have items that you may want later. If they don’t sell, you may be able to get a great deal. However, I find that making the deal on the spot is the best way.

One minor point here. When you are piling up items for a group buy, make sure to put them out of the way where other buyers won’t be going through them. I have made this mistake a few times and have to tell other buyers that the items are mine even if I haven’t finished negotiating for them yet. Besides, if other buyers are going through my items set aside, the seller may get the idea that the items will sell right away to these other buyers. At a garage sale a month ago I was piling up so many items so fast that I created a buying frenzy. Others saw me taking so many items that they feared that I would take everything so they began to pick up items in defense. I anticipated this and had minutes before set aside what I really wanted and remembered what items I would scoop up at the end. Sometimes two hands aren’t enough; gotta use the brain and outthink others.

As I have said before, ask sellers if they have anything else for sale that you may be looking for. Sometimes they will drag it out of the house. I have done this and gotten some goodies that nobody knew was for sale, even the seller.

You don’t need to be aggressive but only self assured. Like a kid in a candy store where many things are at giveaway prices. The difference is that the sellers aren’t professionals and are often dumping their items.

Now that I think about it, most buyers at garage sales are there for a fun outing and aren’t looking at it as a moneymaking venture. Sure, they are looking for bargains. But only specific items that they need and are well acquainted with their values. I’m looking for anything that can be resold for a healthy profit.

I’ll bet that I sometimes miss some great deals due to the fact that I don’t know everything about everything. I don’t mind that but knowing what I don’t know motivates me to learn more and therefore be open to try new possibilities. The American cast iron fry pans is one I have added to my want list. Also, backpacks, tents and sleeping bags are piled in my garage thanks to having read what Masonic Plot wrote in an earlier thread.

Some people learn by reading, some learn by watching and listening to others and some have to learn by peeing on the electric barbed wire fence. Not sure if the last is an ultimate shocker. Should contact Myth Busters and see if they will test it on TV. HaHa

Paine Reliver, it sounds like you are well on your way as a sharp barterer and horse trader. You are so right about there being a “seemingly endless supply of things” available. So much is available that I can’t even scratch the surface. And new items are being bought every day that will eventually find their way to our ghoulish domain known as garage sales. Bwahaha… cough, cough, sputter. Sorry; got a little too excided at the prospects and choked on my tongue.

Auctions will reveal prices for items but you have to be careful assuming that you can get the same price for an identical item later. Time can change prices and demand. I put two paintings on Ebay for $450 each and got no bids for a whole week. I reposted them yesterday and already have bids on each of them. Go figure. My gut feeling told me to repost them and I have never done that before. I’m 60 years old and have only in the last few years learned to listen to my gut feeling and go with it. I’m no rocket scientist but at least I rarely make the same mistake twice.

My younger son goes with me and is learning all the time. This is the main reason for our going to so many garage sales. He needs to get as much exposure as quickly as possible. He buys little but what he does buy is a bargain. He gets to see what I buy and we discuss the value as we are going to the next garage sale. We are splitting the profits from this activity. Profit is a powerful motivator and I expect him to be pushing me to get out there with him in the future. There aren’t too many places where you can make money while you are learning. If I passed on tomorrow (as in croaked) I would have at least passed on some of myself to my sons. What more could I ask for ?

Buying everything new is for those with too much money and too little imagination. I don’t think they would fare well in a collapsed economy. The time to get real with learning value is right now, not after a collapse. The clock is ticking and class is in session. We all know what happens to those who play hooky, don’t we ? Remember Pinocchio and the truant boys turning into jackasses and being hauled off to work in the mines. As a kid, that stuck with me.

I’m still amazed that so few out there are deal making. Not to complain however; more for me and mine.

Far be it from trying to impress you with how smart I am. Actually I am trying to show you how dumb I am at times and that I still succeed in spite of myself. The key to success is getting out there and finding out that we have been dead wrong about how easy it is. And loads of fun too.

Best wishes and happy hunting,

Agnut

P.S. You don’t have to buy anything as long as you are out there looking and gaining experience. After a while you will get the message as the deals pass you by.

I'll have to admit up front, that I had not paid alot of attention to this "sticky" thread until yesterday afternoon when I finally found time to sit down and digest the entire group of posts. The more I read, the more I saw myself in the mirror, as alot of this has applied in my own life and financial dealings since I was a kid, always looking for something here or there to swap or trade or to "profit on". This stuff should be instituted into every high school in America as a basis of badly needed economics training to our youth. But of course, that would help them avoid being victims (sheeple) of the world financial elite, and we just couldn't have any of that, now could we ? .......

I'd like to share an experience that I had with my boys back in the mid to late 90s that falls very much in line with what has been discussed here, albeit on a somewhat smaller scale. Still, the activity we were involved in was a great training ground for the future of my own kids.

Back then, the Beanie Baby and Hot Wheels toy trade was in full swing and, looking back now, probably at it's apex. There were weekly "swap meets" that dealt only in collectible toys that were popular at the time, and few local area toy stores or department stores could keep the stuff in stock.

The boys and I decided that we would specialize in the Mattel Hot Wheels line, those little toy cars that can be bought for less than a dollar apiece, and something that they and I had all grown up playing with and "collecting". Back when I was a kid, it was "Matchbox" cars rather than Hot Wheels, so we naturally included those and the Johnny Lightning series in our wheeling-and-dealing" (pun intended...)

We started by frequenting the Collector Shows, and taking mental note of what was hot, what was not, and what might have potential to other traders and collectors. This all came to remind me of the Tulip Bulb craze and ultimate "bubble" I had heard of in past years, where everyone was buying, selling, and trading, never expecting a "top" in the market or an eventual bursting of the bubble when everyone would try to sell at once. These kind of "craze" markets can tend to get out of hand in very short order, as the stampede starts to run it's course, and then reverses right back onto itself. Not only do you have to keep a diligent watch for "the writing on the wall", you had better watch for the very instant that the pencil touches the plaster.

Sometime around 1995, the boys and I did as I mentioned, started making the "show circuit" and looking over what was for sale, what was moving, what was "MOST WANTED", and just to get an overall feel for the market in toy collector cars. After several weekends, we decided to jump in with our collective six feet, and have some fun at it, with the intention of building up a small part-time business in attending and setting up at these weekend shows and swap-meets.

Over the next many weeks, we scrounged through all of the toy racks at any and all Wal Mart stores that we happened across, toy stores, department stores, convenience stores, and any place that we found these little cars hanging on the racks or stacked on the shelves. Surprisingly, we immediately began buying "rare and wanted" pieces for less than a dollar apiece that we were able to sell and parlay to what eventually amounted to several thousand pieces at our "peak". We might pay 98 cents for a specific model, and then the boys would sell it for upward of $10 or $12 dollars on occasion, depending on supply and demand. But generally, even the more common pieces would sell for $2-3 dollars. Those "special issue" Treasure Hunt cars and J.L. "White Lightnings" were in another league, sometimes demanding $50 each and more, again depending on the issue.

Later, we located a collector/trader/supplier in Tennessee who had hoarded and saved case upon case of the older "blue card" Hot Wheels, and offered them to us at an average of $2 per car on a pick-and-choose basis (i.e. we got to "cherry pick" his inventory), something we easily sold for $8 or $10 each for the right models. Again, it was a matter of knowing what was hot, what was not. The little Volkswagen Beetles were always in high demand, new or old, and we always sold them as fast as we could obtain them.

Anyway, to shorten a much longer and more involved story, the boys and I had an absolute BLAST buying and trading from our miniature "car lot" on my weekends off, and we would easily average sales of $600-$800 per weekend, just playing with the hobby that we all enjoyed. I think all of us got a good lesson in "retail economics" throughout the process, and realized the general economic flow of the community could often be guaged by the money changing hands on a particular weekend. If Friday was a payday (1st or 15th), business always tended to be much better than on the off weekends.

In the end, the collector craze had just started to show a very obvious (to us) decline in sales and in the number of people "collecting" our wares, when one of the regular table dealers told us he had just rented a retail store front in a nearby town to sell collector toys, and offered us $2.50 per car for everything we had......still a couple of thousand pieces. That was still 250% and better of what we had paid for most of them bought in retail stores, and even more than we had paid for the "blue cards", so we put our heads together and decided to take him up on his offer, providing we could keep some of the "better" merchandise for our own collection. He agreed, and the deal was done. We were officially "out of business", but at least on our own terms. We had all, even the youngest, seen that "writing on the wall" and knew this particular mania was about to run it's course and implode back upon itself, and we were right. The market evaporated overnight it seemed, and within a few more weeks, the weekend shows were cancelled one by one for "lack of interest", and eventually stopped altogether. The gent who bought us out literally went bankrupt within 6 months, and all of those "better cars" that we kept from our stock (we "cherry-picked" ourselves in that instance) were sold and traded to other collectors, from which we made a couple of more thousand dollars before "The End" scrolled across the screen. We still have several "momento" cars (fresh in factory packages) from that experience that we enjoy looking through now and then.

As a short side note, on one occasion we spotted a "Johnny Lightning" Series-4 (gold) Ecto-1A "GhostBusters" car in the special edition "White Lightning" premium model which was eventually sold on eBay for $290. There were something less than 100 or so of those produced. Again, a matter of knowing what you are looking at. Not a bad return on a 98 cent investment........

This whole experience taught the boys some great lessons in the workings of "Bartering and Horse-Trading" that will stick with all of US for the rest of our lives. Now when we make the occasional swap-meet, flea market, or garage sale, and see a rack of Hot Wheels or a basket full of Beanie-Babies for sale for pennies, we all just have to point and smile.......even though it really is hard at times not to take a few home with us !



AuNuggets

Wow, good story, AuNuggets!

Back when the whole beanie-baby thing was going in full storm, a friend of my father was into the scene. He had quite a collection going that he was hanging onto in hopes of reselling for huge profits when everyone was buying them up. He told me a story of how a particular one he had was real popular, and at a show once, he was offered something like $700, which he refused. The guy offering kept upping his offer and finally got up to around $1k or something insane, but my dad's friend turned him down, still expecting that he'd get more for it. Well, the guy went away, and he never could sell the beanie baby until some months later at a garage sale, when he got $50 or so for it. He told me a few times how "I should've just taken it!" He sure regretted not selling to that guy when he had the chance. Waited too long to get out of the market.

Wise advise Krugerrand. Better to take a sure profit now than to wait for a greater profit that may never come.

Hi AuNuggets and thanks for the “nuggets” of wisdom in your post #169.

The overview of your dealing in Hot Wheels is that they are collectibles and therefore like so many other fads. All these fads rise and then fade in popularity and demand over time.

Kruggerand in his post #170 showed what happened with Beanie Babies when someone held on too long. From $1,000 to $50 is a horrible drop. Maybe stocks are like collectibles too; they seem to rise and fall with popularity and crash in a selling frenzy with few buyers. Pieces of paper or blips on a computer screen. How real is that ?

Recently I bought about 18 Disney videotapes in their original clamshell boxes for $1 each. The last I had checked, they were a hot item and some were selling for as much as $50. I thought I had stabbed a fat hog in the ass. But when I got home and looked them up on Ebay, they were only selling for a couple of bucks each. The fad had passed in a short matter of time. So I gave several of them away as gifts to a business associate with a young daughter and the rest I added to my collection. Sometimes getting value comes in ways better than just cash profits.

I just sold a couple of paintings on Ebay and will be offering the rest of my collection as soon as I have time. A painting that is now worth $150 won’t be worth squat after a crash. And converting to cash provides the opportunities to pyramid that cash into much more. Being liquid is so important. We have to be realistic and realize that even though dollars are losing purchasing power, it is still the only medium of exchange that everyone recognizes. At least for now.

My current silver musing XXXIX, Field Of Screams, had me thinking about dollars and their value and liquidity. Bad enough to discuss the precarious chain of food supply there but what about the chain of supply regarding dollars ? What if a crisis came upon us without warning (and isn’t that how all crises happen ?) and we had no cash in our physical possession ? Wouldn’t most of the populace be in a pitiful position with their credit cards, debt burdens and no cash in hand ? We only have to sit and reflect upon this for a while until we realize the possibility that there could be a cash crunch. Like the last depression.

The dollar chain is made up of checking accounts, savings accounts, safety deposit boxes, IRAs, stocks, brokerage accounts, your paycheck, retirement checks and social security. ALL OF THESE ARE IN SOMEONE ELSES’ HANDS. I also keep bricks of nickels and pennies and have a jar of coins for small stuff.

Just how many dollars are actually in the hands of each of our citizens ? $50 ? $100 ? $500 ? I have heard estimates of about $40 to $50. Nobody knows exactly because some of it is in business cash registers, banks and foreigners’ hands. Remember when the last depression hit, at the resultant bottom, almost nobody had any money. And the few who did kept theirs out of the bank and weren’t in debt. $100 went a long way in that era.

As I have said before, it would be wise to keep some cash around rather than in a bank where checking accounts give little or zero interest anyway. Where is the risk ? Oh yeah, theft. But countering that relatively insignificant risk is that you would be able to negotiate deals when few others could. The arguments between an inflationary depression and a deflationary depression have been written about on the internet for years and nobody knows for certain. If hyperinflationary, the dollars won’t be worth anything and whether you have it in a bank or your hands, it won’t make too much difference. However, in a deflation, cash in hand will be much safer than in a bank. Especially if your bank goes on a “banking holiday”. Isn’t that a cute euphemism for a screw job ? Just my two cents worth.

My opinion is that so many are in debt and living from day to day that they will still have needs and will be trying to maintain some semblance of their former lifestyle. This will, of course, be a losing battle. They will have to take time to come up to speed to become frugal. It will actually be forced upon them. After all, think about how they live beyond their means and they will have to change their thinking overnight in order to keep what assets they do have. Even so, it will still be a losing battle. They may last a bit longer, that is all.

The FED printing up gobs of money only works when people are willing to go into further debt. And when debt saturation has reached its peak, the FED dollars to be loaned will be like pushing on a string. Their only solution is a helicopter drop of dollars to all citizens. And that would be laughable in theory only. What business in their right mind would continue to sell their valuable goods when they knew that everybody had bundles of dollars that they didn’t work for ? It might be like a pure shot of heroin to a junkie but would kill him. Likewise our economy. A one shot high.

So keep liquid so that you can go with the flow. Even if liquidity is in the form of dollars, they work for now.

Best wishes,

Agnut

I think alot of the "buy and hold" crowd, whatever they may be buying and holding, would be well served to remember this basic concept. Beyond those who have been involved in business for themselves, there are so few who really "get it" when it comes to cash flow and pyramiding your cash assets.

This last post of yours really hits home with me, as I have been contemplating many of your same thoughts, almost to the point of it being eery in a sense. At one time, I found myself being almost 100% invested in PMs, never realizing back then that I could be doing myself more harm than good by not staying at least partially liquid to take advantage of other opportunities that may present themselves. This really became apparent when I was offered several thousand pennyweight of scrap gold at about 50% of melt value back in the mid-80s, and didn't have the money to take advantage of the situation. I did eventually work a "deal" with another buyer, but had to settle for a small percentage in the form of a "finders fee" rather than getting a bigger piece of that particular cake. I vowed to myself "never again", and that was about the time I started to look more closely at my often mentioned 50/50 cash and metals program. It has worked very well ever since in different investments and different markets.

You bring up a good point too about the potential scarcity of cold hard cash in a true deflationary (or even severe dis-inflationary) period when true cash liquidity will be king of the hill, and those with enough foresight to keep themselves in such a position will be able to "name your own price" in so many situations. I see alot of advantages to being positioned in cash AND physical gold or silver in this kind of "we just don't know" environment so that we can, at least partially, take advantage whichever way the wind eventually blows the strongest. There is alot that can be done to prepare for an either/or eventuality in those regards, but I'm still not sure, after all of these years, that there is, has, or ever will be any "sure thing" that can be 100% dependable beyond investing in the simple necessities of food, clothing, shelter, and the other physical necessities of daily life. Everything else is up for grabs and firmly in the category of "uncertainty". John Pugsley's old book "The Alpha Strategy" comes to mind, and I notice it is available online now in PDF format......... a very worthwhile read.

http://www.biorationalinstitute.com/...a_strategy.pdf

You bring up a good question too about the number of dollars being held, physically, by the average American...... $50, $100, or ? Very good question, and in the deflation scenario, a very IMPORTANT concern. Most of us here have at one time or another preached about "staying out of dollars" and "into PMs", but the older I get and the more I take the overall picture into consideration, the more important I believe it is to have a large percentage of "absolute liquidity" in whatever form our current "money" supply happens to be in in the form of paper fiat or token coinage. Ever try to "spend" a Krugerrand at your neighborhood Wal-Mart store, grocer, 7-Eleven, gas station, convenience store, or otherwise ? You "might" find a willing taker of gold or silver for labor or merchandise, IF you can find someone beyond the average Joe Sixpack mentality who wants, needs, desires, works for, and pursues the almighty dollar above and beyond all other material things, at least for reasons of being able to "buy" the widest range of goods or services from others. And isn't that the ultimate form of "liquidity" in the literal sense as most everyone understands it ?

I've said so many times, that economics in general is nothing more than a big balancing act. Where there is take, there has to be give. Too much, and the price goes down. Too little, and the price goes up. But this applies to the dollar as well. As Don Stott is fond of saying, "The more there is of something, the less it's worth", and that is the real danger of the U.S. dollar these days (and since 1913). Staying "dollar liquid" in that sense can quickly defeat the purpose, so learning the concepts of what you have written here is all the more important in keeping your "profit pyramiding" running at a quicker pace than that of inflation, taxes, and other "costs" that keep us taking one step forward, and two steps back more often than we sometimes like to admit.

Right now, gold and silver and a "padding of cash liquidity" still seem like the most comfortable pillow around to assure me of a good nights sleep. That, along with a fully paid for residence, non-encumbered property and vehicles, some food storage (the more, the better), and as high a degree of self-sufficiency as possible seem to me personally to be the best route of surviving what the future may have to throw our way. For many of us, that kind of a situation cannot and did not happen overnight, and it takes time and planning to get to that point in life. Is it worth the struggles and sacrifices, the time to read and study, the efforts of seeking out the things we need to make that trip ? Absolutely !

Thanks again for a great thread here. This should be required on everyone's list of "preparation reading".

Saved a copy of the pdf to my hard drive for reading as time permits.

I "Jumped" into the Horse trading game recently, and made my first 2 trades..

I drive an average of 250 miles a week to get to work and around town on weekends. Even though i had a Older Honda that gets around 34 MPG, i still put around 8 gallons a week. 8 Gallons x $3+ (Its $3.50 here in Seattle) is around $100 a month, and my insurance is $80 a month. So $180 a month to drive a old junker 1986 honda.

I bought a Good for 1 year bus pass that still has 9 Months left on it for $170, off a guy who no longer needed it . I Cancelled my insurance and sold the Honda. I now pay about $19 a month for transportation. Bus drops me off 100 yards from home/work. Thats $160 a month in extra cash flow i can use for horse trading/ Deal making.


Second deal i made was to buy 80 Oz of silver bars For .30c under spot. I had to use my new bus pass and sit on the bus for 2 hours, but it was worth it saving around $60 over the cheapest online price. The girl i bought it from was 18, and said her uncle gave her a 10 oz bar every year for the last 8 years.. She had a cost average under $6 LOL.


Between the 2 trades i think i will save myself around $1500 over the next year. Not bad.


Anyways..

Peace


Silver Monkey

For those who will say...."Ya dude but you still have to ride the bus"

I say..

#1.. Lots of very Hot women ride the bus.
#2..I get time to read and learn thing while looking at hot women on the bus.
#3..Did i mention the $1500+ i will save?

Anyways im just trying to make myself feel better

But did i mention the HOT women? :proud:

Hi again AuNuggets. Yeah, it has taken me a long time to balance my life with holding and acquiring wealth. A good rule of thumb for me has been whether continuing to hold PMs, or to not buy more or even to sell some in order to make my life flow more easily. I don’t mean to say I would sell PMs to buy what I want but rather what I really need. It can include continuing to live decently or having cash to make a deal that can bring multiples back. My ultimate goal is to always keep my eyes focused on my PMs as a storage of my success in dealings beyond what I need to live.

I have never depended upon social security being there for me. If it is there someday, I will just see it as an unexpected bonus. Most people I know work with the attitude that they will live comfortably on their savings, stock investments, retirement and social security. Note that they are ALL paper instruments. And they could all vanish in a financial collapse. I know I am preaching to the choir here but I have always seen myself as responsible for my own retirement. Particularly true these days with all the instability. Will I retire at 65 ? No way. I will work as long as I am able because I love my work.

I’m not crazy about having cash instead of more precious metals but liquid cash allows me to take advantage of deals that I would otherwise miss. Additionally, this cash is looked upon as a power I have beyond most others. This cash is to be used to make more cash and make my life easier. The bills keep coming in and must be paid on time. A person who has a job and no other resources is a sitting duck for inflation and unemployment. Not to mention what can happen to his income when he retires.

It may seem like small potatoes but I bought 144 cans of albacore tuna the other day at 97 cents a can. It costs locally about $2.19.I saved $176 on that one item. Also 6 pounds of Columbian coffee beans at $19.70 which is $9.99 for 12 ounces locally. I saved over $55.

Obviously these are considerable savings. But it goes far deeper than that. This is after tax money that I am saving and therefore more significant. Also I have a store of provisions that may be better than precious metals in a collapse. Furthermore, with food prices going up all the time, I am making interest on my food investment. Care to guess what the price of a can of albacore tuna will be in a year ? Two years ? Three years ? The same goes for coffee and other daily foods. Actually, it extends to all of our purchases.

I Also bought 72 cans of turkey at $2.23 per can. It is $4.19 locally and that is for canned chicken; they don’t carry canned turkey locally. Saved $141and got something that is preferable too. This was at the Costco about 30 minutes away. I noticed that they offer an eye exam for $60 where it is $150 locally. With a new prescription I can get glasses at a great savings on the internet. And a long standing recommendation on preparation sites has been to have several pairs of glasses. They don’t have to be stylish but only functional. See what I mean about going from form to function ?

If the dollar takes a beating, I am not confident that it will be able to get back up this time. Down for the count and we will be counting in years. Maybe even a death blow to the dollar. The only person I know who I feel is totally prepared is Ponce and even he is concerned about having to defend himself from those who never prepared. So nothing is for sure in the future; we have to find what we will feel comfortable with ourselves in that future. As he says, “If you don’t hold it, you don’t own it”. This goes for more than just the precious metals. Have nobody between you and your wealth whether it be PMs. food, housing and even dollars.

AuNuggets, what you wrote couldn’t have been said better. I recommend that we all reread your last post; I did several times. It takes time to establish our comfort level with how much we hold in the PMs and how much in other things that we feel we will need to have in our possession. The ideal is, if there is a food calamity, I want to not have to rush out into the fray and have to buy anything. I want to already have it stored away in several places. The same holds true for cash in hand in a banking crisis.

I know myself and I don’t panic when others lose their senses. But I do get upset with myself for not being prepared sufficiently. I don’t understand how others can go about their lives so disorganized and vulnerable. This would drive me up the wall. So I prepare in order to gain a sort of peace of mind that I have done what I could. Only then can I feel free to enjoy life fully.

This bartering and horse trading is a powerful set of tools that we all should have in our arsenal. It is powerful now while the economy is chugging along. It may be a lifesaver when living in a collapsed economy. As I have said before, provisions get used up if they are not replenished. And then all you have done is put off the day when you are like everyone else. As I read once, more fortunes were made in the last depression than at any other time. I don’t know if it is true but I believe it is so.

These successful people had good common sense, liquidity, and a positive outlook. This is no time to be in debt, for debts in the future may well prevent you from being on top. Money is powerful and provides freedom to make choices. It all depends upon how you look at it.

I will be the first to tell you that I have made mistakes; lots of mistakes. But I learn by my mistakes and grow stronger and smarter through time. There are more successful deal makers out there than I; I have met several of them. Fascinating characters. But this is not a competition with others; it is more like a game that pays off continually. They more I play, the more I want to play. I hope you find it as much fun as I have.

Best wishes,

Agnut

P.S. Something that just happened may illustrate what I mean by wise deal making. My older son saw a 1992 Toyota truck for sale for $600. The seller said that it needed only a bumper and a radiator and the rest of the truck was in excellent condition. So my sons drove 2 ½ hours to pick it up. He took a spare radiator and tools to fix it since the tow bill would have been $200. When they got there, the neighborhood was almost too scary to get out of the car. He looked at the truck and the front end had been pushed in to the radiator. The body had bondo and primer all over it. The interior was a mess. Greatly disappointed, my sons left without even talking to the seller.

So what went wrong ? First, the seller was a liar. A longer conversation may have revealed the true condition of the Toyota truck. Finding all you can about an item on the phone can save a lot of time and frustration. It is not a sure thing but cuts down on the possibility of chasing a wild goose.

Second, it is wise to know the type of neighborhood in which the seller lives. It is hard to find a well cared for item in a ghetto. Sorry, no dispersions cast upon the poor but that is the way I have found it to be. So have a map and know which areas to be skeptical about. Conversely, the wealthier neighborhoods yield items that are generally in far better condition AND the prices are often way below their value. The wealthy sellers often don’t care about price as much as getting the item off of their property. I have been given perfect body and interior cars for free if I would just haul them away.

Third, be patient. There are deals all around and some are even within walking distance. Last week, my son found a Toyota engine for sale without alternator or starter for $300 and had to drive four hours and help take it out of the car. These engines are getting hard to find and it was a good deal. After my son returned, I walked next door to a repair shop and talked to the owner. He sold me an identical engine with alternator and starter for $200. I inquired about another engine sitting in his shop and that deal is still pending. My deal was just coincidental but the timing couldn’t have been more perfect. Upon hearing of this deal next door, my son and I had a good laugh. He is a great young man and obviously still learning to work smart rather than hard. The expression, “school of hard knocks” starting to sound up close and personal ?

Agnut it was primarily from reading your posts that in the general chat i recently purchased a Highway patrol car reason why is for one mileage these cars get great mileage ive been told not from one but quite a few sources,2 it was a steal at only 1,300 and has some very unique add ons,plus it has new tires and i got 4 xtra tires with the deal and a full tank of gas not too shabby id say.

Mileage as in miles on engine,not gas.
One person told me he had over 400k on his another said almost 300k amazing really.

Great to hear Silver Monkey. That’s what I am talkin’ about !

Both of your trades are unusual. See, we need all of you to contribute to this thread to make it as valuable to readers as possible. I can’t alone come up with all the ways to save money. I am just another one here learning as I go.

Your buying this bus pass and selling your Honda was sheer genius. Not everybody can or is willing to go this far. Breaking down the savings of $100 in gas per month plus insurance of an estimated $30 per month plus maintenance on the Honda of maybe $30 per month (that may be way too low when you factor in tires, brakes and periodically needing a transmission or engine or even replacement of the whole car in time), you would be saving not only a considerable chunk of money but there are some side benefits in addition. Riding a bus gives you the time to relax instead of fighting the traffic. And without a car, you won’t have to spend the time in finding a parking space. You also won’t have to spend time taking care of a car. Because a car is like a horse; it needs feeding, grooming, vet bills and eventually has to be put out to pasture. Or the glue factory and Alpo plant for you stark realists out there.

You bought time is what I am trying to say. And buying time while also saving money is something rare in this day and age. Most think they are buying time with getting fast food but this is a poor tradeoff on several levels. The unimaginative answers will always be popular but someone else is getting the bulk of the benefit.

And let’s not forget all the hot babes who ride the bus. Your second post had me laughing. I had forgotten how much fun it is to people watch. I remember in the early 1960s when a friend and I would go to the Ala Moana shopping center in Honolulu to people watch. It was fascinating with all the mixtures of racial extractions and cultural varieties.

Reminds me of a bumper sticker I have wanted to make up; “Children were what parents watched before there was TV”. On second thought, maybe not. Might get a DVD of The Parent Trap hurled through my windshield. More like Planet Of The Apes. But I digress (a lot).

And in Barcelona there is a long broad stone walkway that runs for miles called Las Ramblas where locals can ramble about and socialize. And people watch. What a classy way to spend the evening. It is so slow paced and relaxing with the rows of chairs and tables on each side. In America we have shopping malls but they cannot begin to compare to what I described in Barcelona. We are so fast paced here in the U.S. that we all really need to take a walk in the woods once in a while. Digression #2 but who’s counting ?

You said that you will save about $1500 over the next year but I see much more than that. You have ACTED on what you saw needed to be done in order to better your financial position. That is a HUGE step in itself. You are through the door now and there is no going back. HaHa

In the future Silver Monkey, your eyes will be open to see all kinds of opportunities. And your life will be enriched in a variety of ways. That is what this bartering and horse trading thread is all about.

Look, with inflation, the dollar has been beating the Hell out of us all. Time to not get mad but instead get even. Time to turn the tables and beat the Hell out of the dollar. Make the dollars you have scream for mercy in your deal making.

Wasn’t it Ben Franklin who said, “A penny saved is a penny earned” ? But he didn’t have income tax in those days or all the other taxes like today. Nowadays the quote should be that a penny saved is at least two pennies earned. He was talking about wisely spending money and not about putting that one penny into savings and getting interest.

All we need is imagination and the desire to get better control of our finances. But it doesn’t end there; you can amass a fortune by wisely buying and selling. I don’t care if you want to save for a big screen TV or to continue with your profits; that is up to you and where you want to get off the gravy train. For some it continues to be a wild ride into the future. A long term goal of mine has been to amass enough that to purchase a large item wouldn’t even make a dent in my liquid assets. I can only make so many deals at a time and having considerably more cash than deals on the horizon would put me in this position. Now that may be a time in which we can take some profits and have something that we have wanted for a long time.

Living within our means can be so peaceful. But look at what millions of Americans have done. They are in debt up to their eyeballs and wanting more debt. The only thing stopping them is that they are now a bad credit risk for more debt. And with banks tightening up lending standards (more like putting standards in place), their prognosis looks moribund. If you want to look up moribund you will find it hanging around right under morgue. And well it should be.

You know, I’m not going to feel too sympathetic after a depression gets under way and all the folks who had been sticking their rather prominent proboscises in the air at my meager automobiles and plain clothes. They have been grasshoppers and I have been an ant. Winter’s coming and their pleadings will be useless. They made their lie; let them bed in it.

I’m saving what resources I can “for the children”, that is, my children. If we have more than we need we will be able to help others. But since I think the wheels could come off the economy any time and I have many more preparations to make, there won’t be more than we need. Sorry, Charlie tuna.

Are those unprepared thinking that others will help them with their provisions in a crisis ? Or do they think the government will bail them out ? Or do they just think they think ? Sometimes I wonder how they can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Sorry, don’t mean to sound uncaring but I am frustrated that these unprepared and deeply indebted people will be part of the problem rather than part of the solution. They will be a burden that I will not be able to help. Additionally, they will be a potential danger to the security of myself and loved ones. Every one that can be awakened beforehand and prepares is one less I have to worry about later.

Silver Monkey, I hope you can find a safe place to store your silver and forget about it until the time is right . The only trouble with silver is that you get too much for your money. It is bulky but when the precious metals rise, silver has in the past risen twice as much or more than gold. Only the future will tell if it repeats this. I hope so; that’s what I am betting on.

A season bus ticket at a discount and selling your car ? I am once again surprised at what we can discover to save and make money. Thanks again. You made my day.

Best wishes,

Agnut

Thanks for the reply Agnut :D


I am Surrounded by examples of the Americans you speak of..

A friend i work with is a perfect example, In 2002 his mother loaned him $140k to purchase a home. In 2006 he sold the home for 220k. Paid the loan off and walked away with around $60k. What did he do with the extra money you ask?


He bought a 2006 BMW for $55K

He then bought another house for around $300k and his payment went up around $500 a month. He had to get another part time job working 20 hours a week..

He has owned 3 different (New) cars and sold/Traded every one at a large loss a year or so later..

And he had to borrow $600 from "ME" to make some kind of payment on that shit..

So in a few years when that BMW is only worth $35k and the new home has "Lost" value? (maybe?) I should feel sorry?

Or should i feel sorry for another friend at work who bought a house he could not afford? Who has to borrow $20 for gas? Who cant afford to buy a few beers at the tavern on friday? Who bought with an ajustable rate morgage that has gone up $200 a month in the last 2 years?

These are my friends and i hate to see them do this shit. When it comes down to it, i will help them out in a small way, but i think a good learning lesson is in order for them.


Sometimes i think maybe i am the stupid one? I could be driving a nice BMW, and have a $2200 a month morgage..You know..Living the American dream ect..ect..

But then reality brings me back down to the ground, and i take a look at my Silver/Gold stash, and take a peek at all the 00000's cash in my bank account, and i say...Nah!


peace


Silver Monkey

After reading my post above, i think it came off as me bieng a little " Jealous " of my BMW driving friend. I cant help it man!!
Its like when i did some DD on Denny's (DENN) When it was .25c a share, I told my dad...."Hey Dad you should buy this shit, Almost a billion in net assests and it's .25c" And then i dont buy any of the shit? @#$%$%#^$ its like $4.****IN 50 A SHARE NOW.

I keep seeing people around me who could care less about the financial future, making huge gains, just by dumb luck. @#$@$&%^ man whats a guy to do?




I have been looking Agnut, and i still cant find any of these 100% deals you speak of

I will keep looking.


I would love to hear of some of your "Deals gone bad" Where you have "lost" 90% ect..ect


I am sure you will keep it interesting

Thanks


Silver Monkey